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Post by Shi Da Dao on Feb 23, 2010 10:27:54 GMT 1
Master Xu Yun knew about the Shaolin temple at Song shan, and in his biography, talks of passing it on a pilgrimage he was making. Then, during the Republican era, Xu Yun actually convinced a general not to attack and destroy a Ch'an temple - this was before the destruction of the Shaolin temple in 1928. In 1928, master Xu Yun was in Yunnan, and then invited to Hong Kong - at the time that the Shaolin temple was destroyed. He was either a very long way from Henan, or not on the Mainland when this wanton act occured. However, I have always found it odd that Xu Yun did not mention this in his biography. Doubly so as he dedicated his life to re-building and preserving Ch'an temples.
Recently, research has shown that the Shaolin monks may not have been vegetarian, and much is made of this. However, as you know, the Vinaya - the set of monastic rules for ordained Buddhists - does not out-law meat eating providing the food is the waste or left-overs from the meals of the laity. Of course, an emperor banned 'begging' as 'unChinese', so the Buddhist Sangha had to grow their own food, in this case, vegetables. A further complication is added here, in that in China ordination is not only linked to the Vinaya, but also to the Brahmajala Sutra which does indeed out-law meat eating. Generally speaking, the rule regarding animals is that a Buddhist does not kill, or cause to kill.
Tibet is an interesting acception. In that country, there is not much soil that can sustain vegetables. Therefore, the Sangha tend to eat meat purchased from non-Buddhist ethnic minorities. This is seen as a necessary adaption of the Vinaya to suit local conditions.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2010 12:04:33 GMT 1
i believe the eating of meat is different for each practicing buddhist, and the location.
in the more developed countrys where we have ample choice ,eating meat should be avoided as we know others have suffered.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2010 12:16:02 GMT 1
shaolin is a curious temple where only capitalist monks seem to reside.
pampering of the ego seem to be the main meditation practice.
i think martial arts and dharma practice have become seperated so much that dharma practice has almost been completely removed from daily practice ,this is the same for taichi
where the martial aspects seem almost non exsistant. quick money vs effort
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Post by Shi Da Dao on Feb 23, 2010 13:56:59 GMT 1
Dear Dazen
Thank you for your wise words - I agree. I have deliberately ignored the modern incarnation, because, as you correctly say, it is a commercial enterprise designed to acquire money from rich Chinese and gullible Westerners. The so-called martial arts are gymnastic based, and therefore a mockery of the older traditions.
And, probably even more important,, there is no real Ch'an. It is sad. A regime destroys it's culture, re-invents it and then sells it to the world. I suppose the main thrust of my question was primarily to do with the pre-1928 temple. It is interesting that despite its awesome reputation, it was swept away by Republican. Troops that may not have been that well trained, or indeed well armed. This is why I suspect that it was probably more of a traditional Ch'an temple than many would now admit - as spirituality tends not to be that profitable.
Thank you
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Post by Shi Da Dao on Feb 23, 2010 17:13:07 GMT 1
i believe the eating of meat is different for each practicing buddhist, and the location. in the more developed countrys where we have ample choice ,eating meat should be avoided as we know others have suffered. Yes. I think in the Vinaya, the waste food given to the monk was not to be coveted or pushed away. The monk was to practice equanimity of mind toward all things, including food. Lay people, generally speaking, were not required to exercise the same control, but again, not killing or causing to kill was and is definite requirements. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2010 17:27:29 GMT 1
with reference to shaolin it is possible that the traditional monks left the temple before
it was sacked so as to preseve their art ,since the rebuilding, it has aquired charlatans
with no real tradition. which is possibly why traditional monks never returned
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Post by Shi Da Dao on Feb 23, 2010 18:06:42 GMT 1
with reference to shaolin it is possible that the traditional monks left the temple before it was sacked so as to preseve their art ,since the rebuilding, it has aquired charlatans with no real tradition. which is possibly why traditional monks never returned True. Here is a description of the history and final destruction of Shaolin; www.ymaa.com/articles/history-of-shaolin-long-fist-kung-fuThe Abbot, Miao Xing sided with a local warlord, and apparently ordered his fighting monks to protect the warlord against Republican troops. Not everyone agreed with the Republic, or indeed 'democracy'. Chiang Kai Shek had seized power after the death of Sun Yat Sen. I am wondering whether Miao Xing sided with 'tradition', rather than with 'modernity'? Perhaps the local warlord had more traditional authority than the Republicans who were viewed as invading the north of China. Between 1926-28, Chiang Kai Shel launched his Northern Expedition, with the intention of taking areas by force, which were not loyal to the Republic. For many ordinary Chinese, only an emperor was legitimate. And yes, I have heard stories of Shaolin monks spreading out to preserve their arts. I have also read about Shaolin monks who later in life returned to the world, married and taught their temple arts to their off-spring. |
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Post by Ven. Yao Xiang Shakya on Feb 23, 2010 23:48:37 GMT 1
The 'Shaolin' temples were a set of six such establishments privately owned and built by monks and devotees. There were many neighbouring temple-monasteries also, indeed small 'villages'. Shaolin or 'Sil Lum' in Cantonese, had, by and according to tradition, a visitation from Bodhidharma the visiting Indian Monk of the 'zen' heritage. However, it was not until several centuries or more, that policing in temple-monasteries including the Sil Lum Order, came to have martial-art trained enforcers, out of need because of vulnerability to criminals and marauders. This was a problem throughout Asia. Thai temple-monasteries had some defensive arts and some still do, as a side dish to build character and lessen fears. The Hindu Kalaipayat temples - the very name gives away that the arts of Kalariopayat are a designated discipline herein. Off topic:- The mummified remains of Hui Neng the 6th Patriarch of Chan, sits at the Yun Men monastery in current day China. It was disturbed and damaged by Red Guards' vandals. To prevent this as far as could be done, the now "late Abbott named Fo Yuan who died in February 2009, hid many of parts of Hui Neng in mid 20th century to keep them safe. A brave man indeed, and, what a strange karma to have binded Hui Neng to a 20th century Chan Abbott, Fo Yuan. The Ven. Fo Yuan was my big-boss. Fo Yuan's name is on my lay ordination certificate, before I became fully ordained. Yun Men ( in Japanese 'Ummon' ) lineage joined with Lin Chi ( Japanese "Rinzai" ). Abbott Fo Yuan was a student of Hsu Yun..May all dharma blessings be yours..Yao Xiang Shakya.
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Post by Shi Da Dao on Feb 24, 2010 10:20:38 GMT 1
Dear Yao Xiang Shakya
Thank you for a thoughtful post. It contains many strands of useful information and insight. Thank you also for the update on the body of Hui Neng - I did not know if it still existed today, or that it had been moved from Nan-hua. I suppose it is to expected. I wonder what has happened to the other two mummies of Nan-hua, that of Ch'an master Han Shan and Tripitaka master Jnanabhaisajya - the Indian Buddhist monk who founded Bao Lin/Nan-hua?
In the light of the discussion regarding Shaolin, it appears that they may not have followed the guidance of the Brahmajala Sutra as was common in China - a sutra, like the Lankavatara, that explicitedly out-laws the eating of meat. This strict non-meat eating tradition is a purely Chinese development. As you know, the Lord Buddha himself was a Kshatriya, or member of the Warrior Caste, and as such was trained in Yoga, Hindu scripture and Indian martial arts. It is also true that He forbade the killing of animals for food, but also forbade the Mind discriminating about the type of waste food placed in the monk's begging bowl. Therefore, waste food containing meat was allowed - but there should be no craving either 'for' or 'against' meat eating. What is important is that life is preserved.
Bodhidharma, almost certainly had very little to do with the development of Chinese martial arts. According to tradition, he was a Brahmin from south India. Some say that he was an Indian martial artist and Yoga practitioner. Whether he was or was not, there are no concrete facts. But then there are no reliable facts about whether he existed at all. In the Ch'an tradition, we have the Gatha used to transmit the Ch'an Dharma to him from the 27th Patriarch Arya Prajnatara;
'The mind-ground is the bed in which all seeds are sown,
Things as they really are can be deduced from their appearances.
When fruit is ripe enlightenment is won,
When flower blooms the universe is seen.'
And this is the the Gatha Bodhidharma used to transmit the Ch'an Dharma to the 29th Patriarch Grand Master Wei Ho - that is Hui Ko, 2nd Patriarch in China;
'My aim in coming to this country,
Was to transmit the Dharma and liberate all beings.
A flower of five petals
Cannot fail to fruit.'
Strictly speaking, within the Ch'an literature that I have encountered, I have not read a single sentence that talks of martial practice being associated with Bodhidharma. Besides this, martial practice and spirituality far out-date the arrival of Bodhidharma in China. Confucius for example, advocated the use of archery as a means to develop the character. And it is well known that swordmenship as well as unarmed combat were common from early on. It is interesting to note that the Daoist tradition also advocates martial practice toward divine ends. And it is common knowledge that the Tibetan tradition has a martial strand to it, but that it is never emphasised over the the spiritual practice of meditation.
The Shaolin, like many of the early Buddhist temples, had an Indian founder, like Bao Lin. What do we know about this founder? Presumably he was not of the Ch'an tradition, and this is where Bodhidharma's influence comes into its own. Bodhidharma brought a particular type of Buddhism to China - that is 'Ch'an'. And one of the places it took root is believed to be Shaolin - where Bodhidharma stayed for a time. I think this is probably true.
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Post by Xian on Feb 24, 2010 19:01:12 GMT 1
So from what you are saying, ALL Ch'an has the same Bodhisattva Patriarchs? All Ch'an schools share the 28 Indian and 6 Chinese Patriarchs - the Dharma that reveals the same Mind Ground through out time. This means;
1) Shaolin did not practice Ch'an as conveyed by Bodhidharma.
2) Shaolin did practice Ch'an as conveyed by Bodhidharma.
3) At some point the Ch'an teaching was corrupted and changed beyond recognition.
Bodhidharma brought the Ch'an Dharma to the West.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2010 10:58:23 GMT 1
regarding vegetarianism, i think it will never be resolved ,it is for each ones consious.
meat production,butchery and slaughter is noted as being wrong liveliehood, the end of suffering for all sentient beings is the goal ,and non harming is the beginning of compassion
regarding shaolin temple. probably best remembered as being
" once an honest temple"
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Post by dazen on Feb 25, 2010 11:21:13 GMT 1
Well said, dave. One of the foundations of the Bodhisattva path is the observation on vegetarianism.
"These meat eaters thus abandoning their desire for its taste will seek the
Dharma for their food and its enjoyment, and, regarding all beings with
love as if they were an only child, will cherish great compassion towards
them.Cherishing great compassion, they will discipline themselves at the
stages of Bodhisattvahood and will quickly be awakened in supreme
enlightenment"
Chapter 8, Lankavatara Sutra.
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Post by Shi Da Dao on Feb 25, 2010 12:13:36 GMT 1
So from what you are saying, ALL Ch'an has the same Bodhisattva Patriarchs? All Ch'an schools share the 28 Indian and 6 Chinese Patriarchs - the Dharma that reveals the same Mind Ground through out time. This means; 1) Shaolin did not practice Ch'an as conveyed by Bodhidharma. 2) Shaolin did practice Ch'an as conveyed by Bodhidharma. 3) At some point the Ch'an teaching was corrupted and changed beyond recognition. Bodhidharma brought the Ch'an Dharma to the West. Thank you Xian. You raise an interesting point. The great Song Dynasty Ch'an master Da Hui (1088-1163AD), famous for, amongst other things his prolific letter writing, was also curious as to why there was one Bodhidharma, but by his day, there were Five Houses (wujia) of Ch'an. Of course they all originate and share the same source - the pristine Mind Ground, without discrimination. If Shaolin practiced Ch'an, then it must share this Mind Ground. Incidently, master Xu Yun (1840-1959), our root lineage master, inherited the Dharma from all Five Houses or schools of Ch'an, and is considered the Right Dharma Eye for this generation - or time period. Thus proving that the Mind Ground underlies all things - whether one is seated or practicing martial movement. But oddly enough, Shaolin was famous for another reason. This is what Wong Kiew Kit has to say on this interesting matter; ''Shaolin monastery was the imperial temple situated at the Central Sacred Summit of China, where emperors of every dynasty since its establishment ascended to pray on behalf of the people.' (The Art of Shaolin Kung Fu - Page xv) This means that a very important act of Confucian ritual or 'rite' was performed at Shaolin by the Emperor. There were a number of places that the Emperor would visit, to ensure that qi energy flowed correctly throughout the Chinese empire, thus protecting it and the people against disaster. Usually, the Emperor would receive visitors at his leisure in the imperial palace - him leaving and moving about the country was a very significant time, for if he performed the rituals correctly and at the right time, the Tian Ming, or 'Brightness of Divine Sky', would be ensured. This is basically the notion that correct behaviour throughout the year ensures that the dynasty is approved by hidden, divine power. Imperial patronage ensures that a temple receives special consideration and privilege. This connection also explains why the Emperor would call on help from the warrior monks of the temple - when he thought he needed it. But again, this is problematic - according to sources, the temple housed about 300 monks, with probably about only 100 at anyone time being engaged in martial practice - in a time when field armies were measured in the tens of thousands, of what use would such a small force be? Unles of course, it was a morale boost for the imperial troops to see Shaolin monks on their side, and not the enemy's. Not all Emperors of course, agreed with Shaolin, or were Buddhist, etc. |
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Post by Shi Da Dao on Feb 25, 2010 12:36:42 GMT 1
regarding vegetarianism, i think it will never be resolved ,it is for each ones consious. meat production,butchery and slaughter is noted as being wrong liveliehood, the end of suffering for all sentient beings is the goal ,and non harming is the beginning of compassion regarding shaolin temple. probably best remembered as being " once an honest temple" Very nicely put. I suppose the 'middle way' of tolerance found in Buddhism avoids the extremes of one-sidedness. The Vinaya, built-up over many years, and probably collected together after the passing of the Buddha, is a set of checks and balances. With each rule inter-connected with many others. If one is not allowed to kill, or cause to kill any living being, then vegetarianism would be natural and not required as a specific rule. But the Buddha was pragmatic - when His monks walked quietly through a village, with their eyes caste downward, they have no say about what is put in their bowls, nor are they allowed to refuse. Many people who give food to them may not be Buddhist, and therefore unbounded by Buddhist ideas of morality. In ancient India, to be fed required non-discrimination. It seems to be that some academics are suggesting the meat eating at Shaolin may have been required due to the rigours of martial practice. As begging was out-lawed in China, and considering that vegetables were ample, I do find it philosophically 'odd' that monks would 'choose' meat. Again, by cultivating land and growing vegetables the Vinaya rules are being broken. But at the sametime, killing animals is wrong according to the Vinaya. Things get a little more complicated with tantric teachings. |
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Post by Shi Da Dao on Feb 25, 2010 12:38:51 GMT 1
Well said, dave. One of the foundations of the Bodhisattva path is the observation on vegetarianism. "These meat eaters thus abandoning their desire for its taste will seek the Dharma for their food and its enjoyment, and, regarding all beings with love as if they were an only child, will cherish great compassion towards them.Cherishing great compassion, they will discipline themselves at the stages of Bodhisattvahood and will quickly be awakened in supreme enlightenment" Chapter 8, Lankavatara Sutra. Thank you Dazen. The Lankavatara andthe Brahmajala both advise vegetarianism. And by implication, you add another interesting facet to this debate. The Chinese monastic tradition tends to adhere to the Brahmajala and strict vegetarianism is advocated. However, this runs contrary to the Vinaya Pitaka which advocates 'right thought' and 'right meditation' when a monk or nun partakes of the food offerings - so that the waste food is eaten with an impartial, non-judging Mind. Indeed, even the Lord Buddha, the originator of Buddhism is said to have passed away after eating bad meat - which may have been pork. However, Bodhidharma himself, is said to have brought Ch'an to the West - as Xian reminds us. It is also true that it is believed that he 'sealed' the Mind using the Lankavatara Sutra. That being the case, and considering that Bodhidharma had such an assumed impact on Shaolin development, it is difficult to see why the Shaolin temple tradition did not follow the Lankavatara Sutra, and cease to eat meat. Later, the Lanka was not used that much in Ch'an, and became superceded by the Diamond and Heart Sutras, amongst others - including of course, the Surangama Sutra, |
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