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Post by Shi Da Dao on Mar 20, 2010 23:56:43 GMT 1
 'From 5000BC, Iraq. Samarra Plate. The site of Samarra lies about 60 miles north of modern Bhagdad. Although more common in Inian art, the ancient symbol of the Swatiska can be found in ancient Mesopotamia (modern Iraq). Here it gives direcion to the swirling arrangement of fish and birds on this decorated plate.' To the north of India, there is mount Sumeru which is believed to be the centre of the universe from which four major rivers have their source, with their out-flowing routes creating the arms of the holy Swastika common in Hindu and Buddhist iconology. I wonder whether there is any connection between the similar sounding places of 'Samarra' and 'Sumeru'? Did early travellers bring the Swastika to India and settle on mount Sumeru - naming the new place after their place of origination. Over-time, 'Samarra' could have changed in pronounciation to 'Sumeru'. |
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Post by Xian on Mar 21, 2010 9:49:50 GMT 1
'From 5000BC, Iraq. Samarra Plate. The site of Samarra lies about 60 miles north of modern Bhagdad. Although more common in Inian art, the ancient symbol of the Swatiska can be found in ancient Mesopotamia (modern Iraq). Here it gives direcion to the swirling arrangement of fish and birds on this decorated plate.' To the north of India, there is mount Sumeru which is believed to be the centre of the universe from which four major rivers have their source, with their out-flowing routes creating the arms of the holy Swastika common in Hindu and Buddhist iconology. I wonder whether there is any connection between the similar sounding places of 'Samarra' and 'Sumeru'? Did early travellers bring the Swastika to India and settle on mount Sumeru - naming the new place after their place of origination. Over-time, 'Samarra' could have changed in pronounciation to 'Sumeru'. What an amazing picture and piece of information. I have never heard of this plate before, but considering the age (some 7000 years old) the art-work is magnificant. #what is interesting from what you say is that the Indian explanation for the Swastika's meaning and origination is not the only one, as the Samarra's had the emblem thousands of years ago. I was thinking that the Aryans who came into India and created the caste system were from the Middle-East, so perhaps there is the connection. |
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Post by Xian on Mar 21, 2010 9:51:57 GMT 1
I see. The plate Swastika and the Buddhist Swatika have the same orientation - as does the Hindu Swastika I believe. I think though, the Mount Sumeru in the Himalayas is called by a different name for Hindus - I think it is Kailas. |
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Post by dazen on Mar 21, 2010 15:26:28 GMT 1
Greetings, All.
The swastika is called svastika in sanskrit. This can be translated as " that which is associated with well~being ".
It's origins point to the Neolithic period, ie. 9500 BCE.
Many places all over the world, west and east, have used it. It is what may be termed as a collective archetype by jungian followers.
Symbollically, it is said to represent ~ The Sun, Stability, Eternity, dharma, universal harmony and the balance of opposites.
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Post by dazen on Mar 21, 2010 15:34:40 GMT 1
Further Greetings.
Mount Sumeru, or Meru ( Su prefix for excellent, wonderful ).
In Buddhist Cosmology is said to be at the centre of all physical, metaphysical and spiritual universes.
It is said to be 84,000 Yojanas high ~ 672,000 miles.
It is a metaphor for the size and stability of Buddha's Dharma.
There is a Meru in Africa, which lies at the foot of Mt. Kenya, exactly on the Equator.
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Post by Shi Da Dao on Mar 21, 2010 16:11:49 GMT 1
Very interesting! Mount Kailas: The Legendary Mount Sumeru www.angelfire.com/sc3/1010/KAILAS.htmlThis talks about a mountain in the Tibet area, and this is a picture of Sumeru:  Are there any depictions of a Swastika before 5000BC? Thank you |
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Post by dazen on Mar 21, 2010 18:12:09 GMT 1
Hello, shidadao.
The swastika has been found as part of the 'vinca' script of neolithic S.E. Europe which is dated between 6000 ~ 4000 BCE.
Without doubt, it is one of the oldest continuously used symbols of humanity.
From what I have discovered in the past, Sumeru itself is not a physical place that anyone has ever discovered, but many have said that such and such a place is it.
Buddhist scriptures use immense time spans and distances and sizes, I think generally metaphorically, to convey their meaning. I.E. The Lotus Sutra.
Interestingly, Buddha himself is said to have avoided talking or giving answers to many cosmological questions, wishing people to avoid such speculation.
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Post by Xian on Mar 21, 2010 18:28:17 GMT 1
I checked-out the Samarra bowl - and it is dated to around 5000BC - and this is a conservative date - it could be far older. The example you mention only spans this date, but could be as modern as 4000BC, which would still make the bowl the oldest that I have seen. The point here is that the Swastika 'appears' to be outside India at its earliest.
As for Kailas/Sumeru, did not Lama Govinda, in his The Way of the White Clouds talk about this mountain as a place he visited?
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Post by Shi Da Dao on Mar 21, 2010 18:44:24 GMT 1
I checked-out the Samarra bowl - and it is dated to around 5000BC - and this is a conservative date - it could be far older. The example you mention only spans this date, but could be as modern as 4000BC, which would still make the bowl the oldest that I have seen. The point here is that the Swastika 'appears' to be outside India at its earliest. As for Kailas/Sumeru, did not Lama Govinda, in his The Way of the White Clouds talk about this mountain as a place he visited? Thank you Dazen and Xian. The world is an illusion without end - all we can do is report things as they arise. I shall checkout Lama Govinda's book, but in the meantime here is a Swastika from Crete dated 1000BC:  |
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Post by dazen on Mar 21, 2010 18:46:36 GMT 1
Greetings.
Kailasa ~ crystal in sanskrit.
Gangs Rinpoche ~ precious jewel of snow.
Tantric buddhists believe it to be the home of Buddha Demchek ~ The Buddha of Supreme Bliss.
Every year 1000's make pilgrimage circumambulating its base as a holy ritual.
Hindus and Buddhists go clockwise, Jain and Bonpo counterclockwise.
The path around the base is 32 miles long.
Believe me, what with the terrain and altitude, it is no mean feat.
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Post by dazen on Mar 22, 2010 14:43:17 GMT 1
Greetings, All.
Thus have I heard.
Samarra is believed to be derived from the arabic " Sarr man ra'a " meaning " A joy for all who see."
The founder of Bon, Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche is believed to have come from Mount Yong ~ Drum Gu ~ Tzog. Also called the Edifice of 9 Sauvastikas. Sauvastika is the Left faced Swastika. The number 9 and the left facing swastika are both believed to be important to the Bon religion.
Peace in the Dharma.
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